Derp Spess None (Actual Discussion)

[Valore]

The title was a bit but everything I have to say is the authentic conclusion I arrived at.

The following are just my opinion and I cordially invite anyone interested to engage in conversation with me.

I’ve been kinda debating whether to finish Deep Space Nine or not, since I see people streaming it in the chat (plus screaming in my ear to at least get to the Its A Fake episode). To which I have been apprehensive about, but I wasn’t particularly sure why. For context, I’m just around the start of the Dominion War.

Just to go over the characters, I thought Garak, Dukat, and Quark were just gold and the Suffering of the Irishman never gets old. I thought that the Ferengi episodes were interesting per se, but I did not appreciate the anti-semitic undertones that permeate the Ferengi as a species.

I thought that Jadzia was alright but it felt like there was a tonal conflict at times. However, Bashir was a real miss for me at the start. His character got better I feel, but idk it may just be a combo of his actor and the writing but Flirts With Everything and Muh Medical Ethics result in a strange mix for me (because y’know, flirting with patients is a direct ethical breach. But Bashir is so huge on his other medical duties, it just feels weird to me. Does that get brought up later or is it always just ‘a thing’?)

Kira’s cool. That’s about it. Nothing that really drives me against the character and I thought she acts as a good foil to Sisko a lot.

Odo has been my favorite main ensemble member by far. It kinda feels like someone on the writing team maybe shared my own qualms with Data’s writing? As Odo’s trying to figure out who he is, not what he wants to be like. I thought it be cool.

But lets be real. We all know Lwxana is the main character here.

Jake has also been one of my favorite characters and I thought the episodes with him have been some of the best of what I’ve seen. I thought it was really cool for him to deviate away from the expected Starfleet career and pursue journalism instead. Way to go kid, follow your dreams.

And then there’s Sisko.

Sisko’s a complicated character, with a lot of complicated framing within the story itself and how it’s presented. He’s the leader of the Starfleet (the goodies) faction so naturally the story wants him to win and wants his faction to be better than the others. And the faction that he represents is at least good in intentions, though perhaps not in practice. (Yeah yeah, my opinion. Welcome to the internet.) Yet although I have generally positive opinions on whether I want Sisko’s faction to succeed, I would opine it to be the opposite with regards to Sisko himself.

Maybe it’s the changing of the times, maybe it’s a cultural difference, or maybe I’m just a minority opinion as per usual lol. But I don’t particularly see Sisko as a good person. To a further extent, I think he is the sort of person I would actively avoid if I actually knew. Based on what I’ve seen of him, he strikes me as a user of people without consideration for what the effects of his manipulations may be. The strongest example I can think of was when Bashir was going through legal trouble. Without consulting anyone, especially not Bashir, Sisko took the person’s life, liberty, and future into his hands and negotiated a plea deal. Given my background, yeah I find it to be unethical. But beyond that, Sisko seemed to think that it was his decision to make (because efficiency of the crew, morale, etc). It strikes me as extremely paternalistic. It wasn’t his decision to make, it was Bashir’s. Just because he could solve the problem himself doesn’t mean he should. Secondly, it felt to me that Bashir was just a tool in his hand and all that mattered was that the tool was still working.

Now at this point, the question is “You don’t like that, Valore? I thought you liked morally ambiguous stuff to watch.” To which I would respond, yeah. I thought that the writing here was good. Don’t get me wrong, I think Sisko is well-written. I welcome characters like him. I mentioned he was a complex character, it’s just the framing that feels wrong to me.

Maybe it’s because of where I stopped? Halfway through or so? But it strikes me that DS9 writes away Sisko’s actions as being okay because it fixes the immediate situation they addressed. Yeah okay sure there’s paternalism, but Bashir didn’t go to prison. Case Closed. And maybe that’s just because it’s a tv show, and there’s no time or interest to go into the long-term consequences of Sisko’s actions. But by framing these acts as solutions, I cannot help but feel that perhaps the wrong message was being sent. That it’s okay as long as it gets the job done. I feel like that’s not something that should be swept aside. It’s trading in the long-term for a quick solution. And it’s only legitimized because of the seemingly monolithic Dominion (the baddies) who just want to eat your children for supper.

It ended up being that I liked the character of Sisko, but I constantly wanted him to fail. And it’s kinda hard to want the Fed to win, but the person leading that to fail. There’s certainly a dissonance there.

Anyway yeah. I woke up at 4 in the morning today because I was feeling confounded about Deep Space Nine and whether I should go back to it.

Am I just misrepresenting stuff? Or does what I say make sense? I’ve only been watching ST for a couple years and never avidly, so my perspective is likely far different from people who watched DS9 as a kid when it first aired.

[Lauren]

Just to get the obvious point out of the way: as for Bashir, as for Sisko, as for the show at large, It Gets Better. Later seasons have better episodes more reliably, in my opinion.

I think I agree with most of your interpretations of the characters, barring perhaps Jake whom I rarely found interesting (maybe it was just his outfits putting me off). I definitely agree with the criticism of Jadzia, although I’m a little forgiving to the show about it: they were in new ground with a joined Trill as a recurring character. She’s a very competent Starfleet officer and a host to several full lifetimes of experience. Not an easy character to write, especially when the show deals largely with inter-character dynamics. So, yeah, she wasn’t my favourite, but I’m pretty accepting of her.

You make some interesting points about Sisko. He certainly does some questionable @$!#, but I was intrigued by your point about how that in itself isn’t the issue. If I’m understanding right, you feel like the show isn’t properly adressing the fact that he does some questionable @$!#. And I think I can agree with that, mostly.

I can remember times when his officers might’ve exchanged nervous glances when he threatened to gas a planet or something, and I think scenes like that are well handled. He doesn’t come off as a hero. But I don’t remember them ever speaking to him later about his dubious decisions (correct me if I’m wrong!). That could’ve made a pretty interesting scene- probably with Jadzia. He’s a guy who generally believes all kinds of means will justify the ends, and the show doesn’t often punish him for that mindset. Instead, it gives him the perfect setting to shine: the Dominion War, where no matter how bad Sisko gets, the Dominion are waaay worse. Intentional, I think, on the writer’s part- but I’d agree that we could’ve gotten a little more examination of Sisko’s morality.

I think I should also say, however, that we probably have different opinions of in what ways Sisko treads into morally-questionable territory. I mean, the example you gave with the plea deal I don’t even remember, and I never got the impression he’s manipulative of his officers. I don’t have the same perspective as you, and it’s likely that I watched that episode and thought along with the writers: peg fits hole, now we’re happy. I still want Sisko to win, almost every time. So I do agree with you, I think. But we might be on slightly different wavelengths.

The It’sAFake episode might offer some of that intraspective examination of Sisko we’re otherwise lacking… but on the other hand I’m not sure you’ll enjoy it, lol. Would be curious to hear if you do.

Ironically, this whole Sisko tangent is kind of antithecal to my favourite part of DS9. I really like this show because unlike dealing with the catastrophe of the week a la TNG (okay, DS9 also does this sometimes regularly), DS9 takes it slow and gives us glimpses of the spaces between the catastrophes and how the characters deal with the solutions. I remember craving the moments in TNG where characters were just around a poker table or at the lounge, because that’s where we can see them most seperated from their obligations to their job (read: plot). In DS9, we get a lot more of that, and it’s always felt like a richer environment to me as a result. It’s also why to me it feels closest to what we do here, in RP.

So shouldn’t we be getting glimpses of how Sisko is dealing with his solutions to? Do we, but it’s too subtle? I don’t think the show frames him as a hero, but he’s definitely supposed to be sympathetic.

Oh well. That’s Trek for you.