cause you all suck at staying on topic.
Since you decided to make the statement that a Star Destroyer would destroy the Enterprise. You have offended me, and you must therefore face my wrath.
I am both a Star Wars fan and a Star Trek fan, but I know that when it comes to Space Combat. A simple Star Destroyer is nothing compared to
a constitution class cruiser. Simply based on statistics, and feats.
For example: A Constitution Class Federation Cruiser has the capability of precisely targeting any area of the surface of a planet. Their phasers and photon torpedoes
are also fully capable(as stated in several episodes) of devestating a planet alone.
While a single Constitution Cruiser can effortlessly lay waste to the surface of a planet. It is stated by Han Solo, that to lay such destruction upon a planet, would require
"10,000 star destroyers and more firepower than i've ever seen."
A single Star Destroyer could certainly do heavy damage to a City, but it is in no way capable of doing any lasting devastating damage to the surface of a planet.
Also.....Constitution Class cruisers have something that Star Destroyers could never possibly anticipate.....they have, transporter technology, and it can be seen that
Star Destroyers, nor any class of technology on Star Wars possesses such advanced technology, and would allow for Away Teams to easilly dismantle a Star Destroyer
from the inside(which wouldn't even be necessary...but they could).
Let's discuss this even further.....let's talk about the difference between Hyperspace, and Warp Factor capabilities. If you hadn't noticed, Star Wars ships work
a lot like Naval Battleships on Earth, they move slowly and shoot at each other, often from the sides or the front. At no point(this is the clincher) is it shown
that Star Wars vessels can fight at Warp Speeds.
Star Trek ships are simply too fast for Star Wars ships. There will be no point in time where a Star Destroyer can land a hit on the Enterprise, but Kirk can
throw as many Photon Torpedoes in Vader's face as he wants, and no amount of Force will save him.
The Constitution Class is capable of fighting enemy vessels at amazing speeds. Many battles in Star Trek Nemesis, TNG and even the Original Series take place
at speeds of at least Warp Factor 5. FAR beyond the capabilities of Star Destroyers.
The advantage I think Star Wars easilly has over Star Trek, is ground combat feats and abilities. (not talking about the Stormtroopers....they would all die)
Republic Soldiers, and Clone Troopers or even Droid Technology(which Star Trek lacks)....not to mention Jedi and Sith, would easilly overtake any ground
forces that Star Trek has to offer. Their experience with such varieties of ground forces and attacks would be difficult for Starfleet to compensate for.
That is all. Thank you.
I am both a Star Wars fan and a Star Trek fan, but I know that when it comes to Space Combat. A simple Star Destroyer is nothing compared to
a constitution class cruiser. Simply based on statistics, and feats.
For example: A Constitution Class Federation Cruiser has the capability of precisely targeting any area of the surface of a planet. Their phasers and photon torpedoes
are also fully capable(as stated in several episodes) of devestating a planet alone.
While a single Constitution Cruiser can effortlessly lay waste to the surface of a planet. It is stated by Han Solo, that to lay such destruction upon a planet, would require
"10,000 star destroyers and more firepower than i've ever seen."
A single Star Destroyer could certainly do heavy damage to a City, but it is in no way capable of doing any lasting devastating damage to the surface of a planet.
Also.....Constitution Class cruisers have something that Star Destroyers could never possibly anticipate.....they have, transporter technology, and it can be seen that
Star Destroyers, nor any class of technology on Star Wars possesses such advanced technology, and would allow for Away Teams to easilly dismantle a Star Destroyer
from the inside(which wouldn't even be necessary...but they could).
Let's discuss this even further.....let's talk about the difference between Hyperspace, and Warp Factor capabilities. If you hadn't noticed, Star Wars ships work
a lot like Naval Battleships on Earth, they move slowly and shoot at each other, often from the sides or the front. At no point(this is the clincher) is it shown
that Star Wars vessels can fight at Warp Speeds.
Star Trek ships are simply too fast for Star Wars ships. There will be no point in time where a Star Destroyer can land a hit on the Enterprise, but Kirk can
throw as many Photon Torpedoes in Vader's face as he wants, and no amount of Force will save him.
The Constitution Class is capable of fighting enemy vessels at amazing speeds. Many battles in Star Trek Nemesis, TNG and even the Original Series take place
at speeds of at least Warp Factor 5. FAR beyond the capabilities of Star Destroyers.
The advantage I think Star Wars easilly has over Star Trek, is ground combat feats and abilities. (not talking about the Stormtroopers....they would all die)
Republic Soldiers, and Clone Troopers or even Droid Technology(which Star Trek lacks)....not to mention Jedi and Sith, would easilly overtake any ground
forces that Star Trek has to offer. Their experience with such varieties of ground forces and attacks would be difficult for Starfleet to compensate for.
That is all. Thank you.
You had me at "wrath" Areyis!
Yes....well....you will find no flaw in my argument. Other than typos.
Areyis' entire argument distilled into four sentences.
Spoiler: Show
I was *really* hoping someone would dig that up.
Actually, there's a lot to be said for it the other way... If one examines the technical specifications, such as the various documented shield and weapons tolerences found in sample shematics, you'll discover that the objects star wars deals with are 'Significantly' higher than the Federations. In that it would take a phemonimal pounding to take on most SWs ships. Then there's scale.
An Imperial Star Destroyer has roughly 37,000 crew. Is vastly bigger than anything the Federation has to offer, and the Imperial Navy is VAST. At the height of its power, the Empire ~was~ the Galaxy. The Federation are still struggling to occupy their corner. Have you seen the size of the Imperial Fleet? The Federation ain't got nothing on that.
Then we're talking about Speed.
How long was it going to take Voyager to cross the Galaxy? 72 years, wasn't it?
How long does it take to traverse the Star Wars Galaxy in a rustybucky freighter? Sure, we might even be talking months. But it's less than a single year. (ANd yet's not forget that Cannonically, Traveling a high war damages the fabric of the Galaxy. Hyperdrive has no such flaws.)
And let's not even get Started on ground combat. What's the Federation got? Redshirts WITH HAND PHASERS? Half they time we don't even seem to have Rifles. The Klingons seem to be obsessed with hand to hand Combat. We've got Tanks, (Hover tanks, at that) All Terrian Assault units. ~Things that have Shields on them~ And low and behold, BODY ARMOUR. (Why, oh, why does nothing in Star Trek actually wear any form of protection? I'll never understand this) Not to mention dedicated millitary occupation and control forces.
None of this is without mentioning the Airy fairy Force, which could do horrible things to a Starships Antimatter containment system. (I note, there does not appear to be a corresponding documented weakness in Imperial Starship Design.)
Then we've got Fighter Craft. I Accidently deleted this paragraph the first time, so the short hand version goes something like 6 Runabouts (At a generous guess) per large Federation Ship. (Or, uh, all of DS9) While your average Star Destroyer pumps out 6 Squadrens of attack craft. Granted, the Imperial ones are dreadful, but the Rebel counterparts, if this is setting on setting, are fully shielded.
And sure, you can bomb a planet into being uninhabitable with a few well placed Quantum's. But Han wasn't talking about screwing up things for life on the surface, he was talking about destroying the entire planet. In Startrek we see that happen all of once. (Twice if we count the movie that never happened) and the Planet killer was a big scary thing that did unthinkable things to entire planets. And it was an alien.
We've got a Deathstar. It flies at FTL speeds (Faster than Warp Drive) and goes 'Pew!' and planets explode. And last I checked, Luke Skywalker wasn't an off duty Runabout Pilot. (And I ~think~ a photon torpedo is too big to go down the port. But don't call me on that.)
Round 2! *Ding*
An Imperial Star Destroyer has roughly 37,000 crew. Is vastly bigger than anything the Federation has to offer, and the Imperial Navy is VAST. At the height of its power, the Empire ~was~ the Galaxy. The Federation are still struggling to occupy their corner. Have you seen the size of the Imperial Fleet? The Federation ain't got nothing on that.
Then we're talking about Speed.
How long was it going to take Voyager to cross the Galaxy? 72 years, wasn't it?
How long does it take to traverse the Star Wars Galaxy in a rustybucky freighter? Sure, we might even be talking months. But it's less than a single year. (ANd yet's not forget that Cannonically, Traveling a high war damages the fabric of the Galaxy. Hyperdrive has no such flaws.)
And let's not even get Started on ground combat. What's the Federation got? Redshirts WITH HAND PHASERS? Half they time we don't even seem to have Rifles. The Klingons seem to be obsessed with hand to hand Combat. We've got Tanks, (Hover tanks, at that) All Terrian Assault units. ~Things that have Shields on them~ And low and behold, BODY ARMOUR. (Why, oh, why does nothing in Star Trek actually wear any form of protection? I'll never understand this) Not to mention dedicated millitary occupation and control forces.
None of this is without mentioning the Airy fairy Force, which could do horrible things to a Starships Antimatter containment system. (I note, there does not appear to be a corresponding documented weakness in Imperial Starship Design.)
Then we've got Fighter Craft. I Accidently deleted this paragraph the first time, so the short hand version goes something like 6 Runabouts (At a generous guess) per large Federation Ship. (Or, uh, all of DS9) While your average Star Destroyer pumps out 6 Squadrens of attack craft. Granted, the Imperial ones are dreadful, but the Rebel counterparts, if this is setting on setting, are fully shielded.
And sure, you can bomb a planet into being uninhabitable with a few well placed Quantum's. But Han wasn't talking about screwing up things for life on the surface, he was talking about destroying the entire planet. In Startrek we see that happen all of once. (Twice if we count the movie that never happened) and the Planet killer was a big scary thing that did unthinkable things to entire planets. And it was an alien.
We've got a Deathstar. It flies at FTL speeds (Faster than Warp Drive) and goes 'Pew!' and planets explode. And last I checked, Luke Skywalker wasn't an off duty Runabout Pilot. (And I ~think~ a photon torpedo is too big to go down the port. But don't call me on that.)
Round 2! *Ding*
Well, as I'm also a fan of both, I have to point out that some of the strengths in Star Wars's plot and story are the fact that there are no Utopian technological advances (transporters, replicators, the mysterious "by the way we invented this thing to do...well whatever we want to say it does" devices). In my opinion, it makes Star Wars a bit more realistic and the struggles of the characters a bit more dramatic.
Exactly Razor.(and yes they have shields....but definitely not as advanced as the Enterprise's)
And with the simple warp speed advantage Star Trek has.....a single Miranda Class Cruiser could probably destroy a group of Star Destroyers by itself over a matter of time.
(Hold on there Sophie, i'll respond to you in a sec)
And with the simple warp speed advantage Star Trek has.....a single Miranda Class Cruiser could probably destroy a group of Star Destroyers by itself over a matter of time.
(Hold on there Sophie, i'll respond to you in a sec)
thehalseyist wrote:
Actually, there's a lot to be said for it the other way... If one examines the technical specifications, such as the various documented shield and weapons tolerences found in sample shematics, you'll discover that the objects star wars deals with are 'Significantly' higher than the Federations. In that it would take a phemonimal pounding to take on most SWs ships. Then there's scale.
An Imperial Star Destroyer has roughly 37,000 crew. Is vastly bigger than anything the Federation has to offer, and the Imperial Navy is VAST. At the height of its power, the Empire ~was~ the Galaxy. The Federation are still struggling to occupy their corner. Have you seen the size of the Imperial Fleet? The Federation ain't got nothing on that.
Then we're talking about Speed.
How long was it going to take Voyager to cross the Galaxy? 72 years, wasn't it?
How long does it take to traverse the Star Wars Galaxy in a rustybucky freighter? Sure, we might even be talking months. But it's less than a single year. (ANd yet's not forget that Cannonically, Traveling a high war damages the fabric of the Galaxy. Hyperdrive has no such flaws.)
Round 2! *Ding*
An Imperial Star Destroyer has roughly 37,000 crew. Is vastly bigger than anything the Federation has to offer, and the Imperial Navy is VAST. At the height of its power, the Empire ~was~ the Galaxy. The Federation are still struggling to occupy their corner. Have you seen the size of the Imperial Fleet? The Federation ain't got nothing on that.
Then we're talking about Speed.
How long was it going to take Voyager to cross the Galaxy? 72 years, wasn't it?
How long does it take to traverse the Star Wars Galaxy in a rustybucky freighter? Sure, we might even be talking months. But it's less than a single year. (ANd yet's not forget that Cannonically, Traveling a high war damages the fabric of the Galaxy. Hyperdrive has no such flaws.)
Round 2! *Ding*
Oh, I will agree that Star Wars certainly has speed advantage when it comes to traveling. But Star Wars ships are clearly at the disadvantage when it comes to combat speeds.
Hyper-speed in Star Wars is basicly traveling through a sort of space worm-hole.(This is canon as well), while Warp Speed can be applied to combat.
An Imperial Star Destroyer may have a vast crew, but it's not much bigger a ship in reference to meters(Unless you bring out the Super-Star Destroyers, in which case....yes, it is far bigger)
Fact is....you will not at any point be able to prove that The Empire has the Combat Speed to keep up with Federation ships.
Hyperdrive is a traveling mechanism, and has never been applied to combat in the Star Wars Universe.
thehalseyist wrote:
And let's not even get Started on ground combat. What's the Federation got? Redshirts WITH HAND PHASERS? Half they time we don't even seem to have Rifles. The Klingons seem to be obsessed with hand to hand Combat. We've got Tanks, (Hover tanks, at that) All Terrian Assault units. ~Things that have Shields on them~ And low and behold, BODY ARMOUR. (Why, oh, why does nothing in Star Trek actually wear any form of protection? I'll never understand this) Not to mention dedicated millitary occupation and control forces.
Oh, I won't even debate you on this. Star Wars crushes Star Trek easilly in Ground Combat. I was actually complaining about the lack of Ground Combat in Star Trek the other day. People will testify that I agree with you.
thehalseyist wrote:
Then we've got Fighter Craft. I Accidently deleted this paragraph the first time, so the short hand version goes something like 6 Runabouts (At a generous guess) per large Federation Ship. (Or, uh, all of DS9) While your average Star Destroyer pumps out 6 Squadrens of attack craft. Granted, the Imperial ones are dreadful, but the Rebel counterparts, if this is setting on setting, are fully shielded.
The Fighters in Star Wars may be superior, but I won't debate that since it's a useless point. At no point would a Federation ship ever be bothered by a Tie Fighter
thehaleyist wrote:
And sure, you can bomb a planet into being uninhabitable with a few well placed Quantum's. But Han wasn't talking about screwing up things for life on the surface, he was talking about destroying the entire planet. In Startrek we see that happen all of once. (Twice if we count the movie that never happened) and the Planet killer was a big scary thing that did unthinkable things to entire planets. And it was an alien.
Han Solo quoted that you would need "10,000 Star Destroyers and more firepower than i've ever seen". I think that's a point that can be overanalyzed and debated. But you get the point
thehaleyist wrote:
We've got a Deathstar. It flies at FTL speeds (Faster than Warp Drive) and goes 'Pew!' and planets explode. And last I checked, Luke Skywalker wasn't an off duty Runabout Pilot. (And I ~think~ a photon torpedo is too big to go down the port. But don't call me on that.)
FTL is not faster than Warp Drive....
I'd say this is a corny(and badly edited) version of how a fight between the Enterprise would handle the situation.
I do agree that the power of the Death Star would force the Enterprise to retaliate. But the inaccuracies in this video. Are of course....the combat speed that Federation Vessels have over Imperial ships. All i'm saying.......is that unless you can prove that Imperial Ships have far more Combat Speed than I believe they do. There is no hope for even an Armada of Star Destroyers against the Enterprise.
You can't kill what you can't hit.
First of all, the Imperial Fleet has the inherent advantage that it is bound by far less rules, science-wise, than starfleet. Star Wars is soft, soft, soft, mushy sci-fi, bordering on fantasy. Star Trek is still soft sci-fi, but it's got an actual system of rules and such and at least pretends to obey science.
Two, Han doesn't say that it would take that much to get wreak havok on the surface of a planet. He said that it would take that much firepower to destroy the planet entirely.
Three, Star Wars ships most definitely have shields. And they're pretty damned strong, if memory serves. Plus, you seem to have forgotten that, to beam over, said starfleet ship would /also/ have to lower it's shields, leaving it vulnerable to bombardment by fighters.
Four, hyperdrives are much, much, much faster than warp drives. And you're incorrect- if memory serves, the only instance in which combat took place at warp speeds was in Enterprise, and that was at, like, warp-3.
I like to argue.
EDITED: Feel free to debate, but keep it friendly, kthnx. - Skyler
Two, Han doesn't say that it would take that much to get wreak havok on the surface of a planet. He said that it would take that much firepower to destroy the planet entirely.
Three, Star Wars ships most definitely have shields. And they're pretty damned strong, if memory serves. Plus, you seem to have forgotten that, to beam over, said starfleet ship would /also/ have to lower it's shields, leaving it vulnerable to bombardment by fighters.
Four, hyperdrives are much, much, much faster than warp drives. And you're incorrect- if memory serves, the only instance in which combat took place at warp speeds was in Enterprise, and that was at, like, warp-3.
I like to argue.
EDITED: Feel free to debate, but keep it friendly, kthnx. - Skyler
Neeeeeeerds!
Three words will end this debate: The Last Starfighter.
One little ship took down an entire space armada single handed. Eat them apples!
One little ship took down an entire space armada single handed. Eat them apples!
OK, time to put on my Nerd-Gasm hat.
Specifically - FTL Travel Modes.
Star Wars - Hyperdrive
Travel through artificially generated wormhole effect (dubbed Hyperspace) to get from point A to point B in reasonable time frames. Hyperspace travel is limited by Gravity Well Shadows in hyperspace, meaning you cannot be too close to a planet, star, or other sizable stellar body. Hyperspace routes must be calculated to avoid known gravitic phenomenon, otherwise one might be pulled out of hyperdrive due to a gravity well (not a fun event) or possibly other, more dangerous events. Ships have gone into hyperspace and never come back, simply because it's not perfect.
Hyperdrive:
Speed: UBER FAST! (Across the Galaxy in less than a single year)
FTL Sensor: NONE (While in Hyperspace, you're blind to what's going on in the Normal universe) - EXAMPLE - Han has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE That Alderaan has been popped until AFTER they come out of hyperspace and find themselves in the rubble of the destroyed world.
FTL Combat: NONE (Hyperdrives create a field around the ship, allowing it to exist in Hyperspace. Anything exiting this field immediately ceases to exist - Hyperspace follows different rules.)
FTL Manuverability: NONE (There's no way to change course once you've gotten started. Your only alternative is to drop out of hyperspace, figure out where you are, and plot a new course for a new destination.)
Star Trek: WARP SPEED, Mr. Scott!
Travel through spacewarp and/or a sub-domentional domain known as "Subspace" to get from point A to point B in reasonable time frames. Warp Drive travel is limited by the conditions of the fabric of the Space, Subspace, and space-time continuums, as well as the galactic geography - you go around star systems and nebulas and so forth. While most earlier warp drive technology is stated in places to have an adverse side effect if engaged within a solar system, later iterations have been used practically up to a planet. The Abrams-verse shows no such limitations, as the Enterprise stops INSIDE TITAN'S ATMOSPHERE! Pinpoint Precision Stopping, right there!
Despite the sub-dimentional domain of Sub-Space, Warp Drive occurs within the Real World. The only reason ships go mission at warp speed is probably because the broke or someone attacked them. Sub Space is rather travel friendly, baring the space dust and whatnot that the deflector shields and nav-deflector dish deal with.
Warp Drive:
Speed: Not Terrible Fast. (It takes decades to cross the galaxy, if not close to a century.)
FTL Sensor: Varries, but a required technology - the navigational deflector has to se what's in front of the ship in order to push the junk out of the way.
FTL Combat: POSSIBLE (Photon Torpedoes are designed specifically for combat effectiveness while at FTL Speeds. They have a warp sustainment coil that takes a "hand-off" from the parent starship when fired at warp speeds, allowing it to travel FTL FOR A TIME. The Sustainment Coil is powered by the PhoTorp's onboard Matter-Antimatter supply, so FTL Combat reduces a PhoTorp's potential yield. A PhoTorp fired from impulse speeds can NOT accelerate to warp speeds. Phasers (and the lasers before them) were originally SUB-FTL domain only impliments, owing to light-speed limitations (laters are effectively really powerfull flashlights.) Between TOS and TNG, the Anular confinement Beam (ACB) Technology that keeps Transporter Matter Streams in one piece was successfully modified to be incorporated into Federation Phaser Technology, allowing for phaser usage while at Warp Speed. As with PhoTorps, even ACB jacketting doesn't prevent serious degredation of phaser beam strength over distance. (By the way, the way shields interact with the ACB is the reason you can't beam through shields. Without the ACB, the matter stream would disperse, thus killing/destroying the transported person/object.)
FTL Manuverability: Extreme (relatively speaking.) Ships can change course at a whim whie at Warp Speeds. I'd imagine they would slow down while turning, otherwise you'd get a 10 light-year wide U-turn when you could have done it in under a light-year.
HOWVER! despite the above, combat does NOT occur at FTL speeds against Non-FTL Targets! The Starship would *HAVE* to come out of warp speeds in order to lay on it's ordinance. Otherwise, you'd have a second, maybe two, to let off a few lucky shots and hope you hit as you warp past at speeds FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT!
THE SPEED ADVANTAGE FROM FTL COMBAT DOES NOT EXIST WHEN FIGHTING BETWEEN THESE TWO GENRES!
What you *DO* get, however, is the ability to conduct lightning fast hit-and-run raids. Star Trek Sensors are notoriously powerful, even for the Star-Wars High-Tech Fantasy. Star Wars never claims to be able to see very far beyond the boundaries of a single solar system. 1 Light Year at the most, let's SWAG it. (Scientific Wise Ass Guess) Star Trek, on the other hand, has massively discriminatory capabilities at insane ranges - needed for when you're traveling at hundreds of time sthe Speed of Light and Need To Know where that errant particle of argon is so it doesn't puncture your hull. Star Trek Sensors are generally limited to about 25 light years, give or take. At such long ranges, you're going to get numbers of capitol ships, but very little more. If you stopped at 1.5 light years (outside the Star Wars Postulated Sensor Range) you'd be able to see number of ships, their class, if they've been modified, weapon and shield status, fighter positions and classifications, general damage states of enemy craft, and so forth. You'd be able to plot a warp jump, lay off precicely targeted shots, and then warp out in some random direction beyond the 1.5 light-year boundary (gotta give a little space for manuver ). You'd communicate with eachother (if you have more than one Starship in your task force) regroup, and come about for another hit-and-run while the enemy is reeling and figuring out WTF is happening.
You can't do this sort of thing with Star Wars.
Also, I had to laugh - VERY HARD - at the following comment:
I'm not trying to be rude or insulting, but I found the comment very amusing, and here's why.
FTL = Faster than Light. Nothing more. It does not give *ANY* qualifications as to how much faster than light you're traveling. It also does not equate to "only going the speed of light or slighty more so as to earn the qualification of faster than light."
FTL simply states that you are going Faster Than Light. Warp Drive propels a ship at FTL speeds. Hyperdrive propels a ship at FTL speeds. Both statements are EXACTLY TRUE, because FTL is not a speed Value, but rather a SPEED CATEGORY.
And let's not forget the Cloaking Devices. Imagine a squadron of Vor'Cha battlecruisers .... or even General Chang's prototype Battle Cloak'd Bird of Prey. Star Wars Cloaking Technology is a two-edged sword. Not only can you not be seen, you can't see OUT of it either.
Ship Size Differences. I forget who mentioned that yea, Star Wars ships aren't much bigger than a Star Trek ship. but you forget .... those Star Destroyers, needing thousands of crew? Yeah, they are ALL SHIP. There's no interior blank spaces there. It's a wedge with guns and engines. Look at a Starship. There's so much empty space between the primary hull, secondary hull, and the warp engines. You can't reasonably compare the two ship design methods on length alone. A Star Destroyer (even a small, lowly Victory) has so much more internal volume than even the Galaxy Class does.
And I'll reiterate what was mentioned before. Han mentions it'll take 10,000+ starships and more firepower than the Imperial Fleet to BLOW UP A PLANET. POOF! GONE! Any Imperial Vessel can decimate a city, just like any Federation Starship can. A Starship can lay waste to the SURFACE ... but not make a planet explode into little bits.
It's not stated how much firepower those phasers and photorps would need (IE QUANTITY) in order to effect such a planet-wide wasteland. A constitution class cruiser (hell, even a GALAXY class explorer) is TINY compared to a planet. So, while the statement is true, the amount of ships needed to obliterate even the SURFACE of a planet would run into the extremes. I believe the statement, while true, was also exagerated for those who wouldn't know the difference.
Planetary Devastation:
Federation Starship - Surface only.
Imperial Star destroyer (any class) - Surface Only
Death Star - Planet? What planet?
Shields: Star Wars ships have shields. Remember those spheres on top of the Star Destroyer Command Towers? The ones that make me think of the Epcot Center in Florida? Yup: Shield Generator/projector equipment. At the end of Return of the Jedi, starshighters popped them, Executor (Super Star Destroyer) bridge crew declared that the bridge shield was out. Admiral Piett orders foreward firepower intensified (FLAK screen, essentially) and an A-wing got clipped ... it's random, uncontrolled spiral made it impossible to hit again, and it slammed into Executor's bridge (also poorly placed, just as with a Federation Starship.)
Imerial ships have shields, Rebel FIGHTERS have shields .... and I'll let you in on a secret.
Mon Calamari Cruisers have MULTIPLE, REDUNDANT, OVERLAPPING SHIELD GENERATORS!!!! There's a good reason Ackbar stated "Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!" That's because Mon Cal Cruisers can take anything someone can dish out and return it in kind .... and when a shield pops, there's a backup or four ready in the wings to take up the slack while the original unit is repaired, cooled down, recharged, and so forth.
So, transporters do not equal Ultimate game-changing technology.
Fighters.
yes, a single tie-fighter is no match for any Capitol Class shield system. But let's count numbers here. A quadron is generally accepted to be 12 craft. 6 squadrons = 72 Tie Fighters. And that's if we're just going with a single fighter type. Most Star Destroyers will carry a mixed compliment. There's be a squadron of Bombers (those double-hulled TIE's in Empire, poking at the asteroids with photon bombs) Some of the more prestigously assigned ships might even have a squadron of Tie Interceptors (the bent wing TIE fighters.) And let's not get started on the various other mostly small craft with capitol class ordinance. Like the Y-wing and B-wing, both of which carry Ion Cannons, capable of shredding shields and playing merry hob with all sorts of powered equipment. And the Y and B wing Ion Guns are rated against capitol ships .... which are their primary targets. And the Y-wing was originally an Imperial ship... as was the X-wing (Incom T-65) until certain Incom Execs took the X-wing plans to the Rebel Alliance.
So, let's do the math again, with a slightly altered small craft compliment.
1 squadron of Y-wings (12 ships)
1 Squadron of TIE Bombers (12 ships)
1 squadron of X-wings (12 ships)
3 squadrons of TIE FIghters (36 ships)
1 Star Destroyer
VS
1 Galaxy Class Starship
About 20-30 Shuttles of varying sizes and ratings (look at the Enterprise-D blueprints, and count the shuttles actually represented. Most people list so few small craft for such a massive ship, mostly because I think they forget about the size of the hangar bay on the saucer.)
Make is 3 squadrons of small craft, that in no way match up to the compliment (and sheer numbers) that Star Wars brings to bear on a regular basis.
And let's not forget .... the ships in Star Wars are built and designed expressly for the waging of war. The Ships of the Federation are built expressly to be able to fill as many potential roles as possible, therefore sacrificing combat potential for exploration, science, and luxury.
Specifically - FTL Travel Modes.
Star Wars - Hyperdrive
Travel through artificially generated wormhole effect (dubbed Hyperspace) to get from point A to point B in reasonable time frames. Hyperspace travel is limited by Gravity Well Shadows in hyperspace, meaning you cannot be too close to a planet, star, or other sizable stellar body. Hyperspace routes must be calculated to avoid known gravitic phenomenon, otherwise one might be pulled out of hyperdrive due to a gravity well (not a fun event) or possibly other, more dangerous events. Ships have gone into hyperspace and never come back, simply because it's not perfect.
Hyperdrive:
Speed: UBER FAST! (Across the Galaxy in less than a single year)
FTL Sensor: NONE (While in Hyperspace, you're blind to what's going on in the Normal universe) - EXAMPLE - Han has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE That Alderaan has been popped until AFTER they come out of hyperspace and find themselves in the rubble of the destroyed world.
FTL Combat: NONE (Hyperdrives create a field around the ship, allowing it to exist in Hyperspace. Anything exiting this field immediately ceases to exist - Hyperspace follows different rules.)
FTL Manuverability: NONE (There's no way to change course once you've gotten started. Your only alternative is to drop out of hyperspace, figure out where you are, and plot a new course for a new destination.)
Star Trek: WARP SPEED, Mr. Scott!
Travel through spacewarp and/or a sub-domentional domain known as "Subspace" to get from point A to point B in reasonable time frames. Warp Drive travel is limited by the conditions of the fabric of the Space, Subspace, and space-time continuums, as well as the galactic geography - you go around star systems and nebulas and so forth. While most earlier warp drive technology is stated in places to have an adverse side effect if engaged within a solar system, later iterations have been used practically up to a planet. The Abrams-verse shows no such limitations, as the Enterprise stops INSIDE TITAN'S ATMOSPHERE! Pinpoint Precision Stopping, right there!
Despite the sub-dimentional domain of Sub-Space, Warp Drive occurs within the Real World. The only reason ships go mission at warp speed is probably because the broke or someone attacked them. Sub Space is rather travel friendly, baring the space dust and whatnot that the deflector shields and nav-deflector dish deal with.
Warp Drive:
Speed: Not Terrible Fast. (It takes decades to cross the galaxy, if not close to a century.)
FTL Sensor: Varries, but a required technology - the navigational deflector has to se what's in front of the ship in order to push the junk out of the way.
FTL Combat: POSSIBLE (Photon Torpedoes are designed specifically for combat effectiveness while at FTL Speeds. They have a warp sustainment coil that takes a "hand-off" from the parent starship when fired at warp speeds, allowing it to travel FTL FOR A TIME. The Sustainment Coil is powered by the PhoTorp's onboard Matter-Antimatter supply, so FTL Combat reduces a PhoTorp's potential yield. A PhoTorp fired from impulse speeds can NOT accelerate to warp speeds. Phasers (and the lasers before them) were originally SUB-FTL domain only impliments, owing to light-speed limitations (laters are effectively really powerfull flashlights.) Between TOS and TNG, the Anular confinement Beam (ACB) Technology that keeps Transporter Matter Streams in one piece was successfully modified to be incorporated into Federation Phaser Technology, allowing for phaser usage while at Warp Speed. As with PhoTorps, even ACB jacketting doesn't prevent serious degredation of phaser beam strength over distance. (By the way, the way shields interact with the ACB is the reason you can't beam through shields. Without the ACB, the matter stream would disperse, thus killing/destroying the transported person/object.)
FTL Manuverability: Extreme (relatively speaking.) Ships can change course at a whim whie at Warp Speeds. I'd imagine they would slow down while turning, otherwise you'd get a 10 light-year wide U-turn when you could have done it in under a light-year.
HOWVER! despite the above, combat does NOT occur at FTL speeds against Non-FTL Targets! The Starship would *HAVE* to come out of warp speeds in order to lay on it's ordinance. Otherwise, you'd have a second, maybe two, to let off a few lucky shots and hope you hit as you warp past at speeds FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT!
THE SPEED ADVANTAGE FROM FTL COMBAT DOES NOT EXIST WHEN FIGHTING BETWEEN THESE TWO GENRES!
What you *DO* get, however, is the ability to conduct lightning fast hit-and-run raids. Star Trek Sensors are notoriously powerful, even for the Star-Wars High-Tech Fantasy. Star Wars never claims to be able to see very far beyond the boundaries of a single solar system. 1 Light Year at the most, let's SWAG it. (Scientific Wise Ass Guess) Star Trek, on the other hand, has massively discriminatory capabilities at insane ranges - needed for when you're traveling at hundreds of time sthe Speed of Light and Need To Know where that errant particle of argon is so it doesn't puncture your hull. Star Trek Sensors are generally limited to about 25 light years, give or take. At such long ranges, you're going to get numbers of capitol ships, but very little more. If you stopped at 1.5 light years (outside the Star Wars Postulated Sensor Range) you'd be able to see number of ships, their class, if they've been modified, weapon and shield status, fighter positions and classifications, general damage states of enemy craft, and so forth. You'd be able to plot a warp jump, lay off precicely targeted shots, and then warp out in some random direction beyond the 1.5 light-year boundary (gotta give a little space for manuver ). You'd communicate with eachother (if you have more than one Starship in your task force) regroup, and come about for another hit-and-run while the enemy is reeling and figuring out WTF is happening.
You can't do this sort of thing with Star Wars.
Also, I had to laugh - VERY HARD - at the following comment:
Areyis wrote:
FTL is not faster than Warp Drive....
I'm not trying to be rude or insulting, but I found the comment very amusing, and here's why.
FTL = Faster than Light. Nothing more. It does not give *ANY* qualifications as to how much faster than light you're traveling. It also does not equate to "only going the speed of light or slighty more so as to earn the qualification of faster than light."
FTL simply states that you are going Faster Than Light. Warp Drive propels a ship at FTL speeds. Hyperdrive propels a ship at FTL speeds. Both statements are EXACTLY TRUE, because FTL is not a speed Value, but rather a SPEED CATEGORY.
And let's not forget the Cloaking Devices. Imagine a squadron of Vor'Cha battlecruisers .... or even General Chang's prototype Battle Cloak'd Bird of Prey. Star Wars Cloaking Technology is a two-edged sword. Not only can you not be seen, you can't see OUT of it either.
Ship Size Differences. I forget who mentioned that yea, Star Wars ships aren't much bigger than a Star Trek ship. but you forget .... those Star Destroyers, needing thousands of crew? Yeah, they are ALL SHIP. There's no interior blank spaces there. It's a wedge with guns and engines. Look at a Starship. There's so much empty space between the primary hull, secondary hull, and the warp engines. You can't reasonably compare the two ship design methods on length alone. A Star Destroyer (even a small, lowly Victory) has so much more internal volume than even the Galaxy Class does.
And I'll reiterate what was mentioned before. Han mentions it'll take 10,000+ starships and more firepower than the Imperial Fleet to BLOW UP A PLANET. POOF! GONE! Any Imperial Vessel can decimate a city, just like any Federation Starship can. A Starship can lay waste to the SURFACE ... but not make a planet explode into little bits.
It's not stated how much firepower those phasers and photorps would need (IE QUANTITY) in order to effect such a planet-wide wasteland. A constitution class cruiser (hell, even a GALAXY class explorer) is TINY compared to a planet. So, while the statement is true, the amount of ships needed to obliterate even the SURFACE of a planet would run into the extremes. I believe the statement, while true, was also exagerated for those who wouldn't know the difference.
Planetary Devastation:
Federation Starship - Surface only.
Imperial Star destroyer (any class) - Surface Only
Death Star - Planet? What planet?
Shields: Star Wars ships have shields. Remember those spheres on top of the Star Destroyer Command Towers? The ones that make me think of the Epcot Center in Florida? Yup: Shield Generator/projector equipment. At the end of Return of the Jedi, starshighters popped them, Executor (Super Star Destroyer) bridge crew declared that the bridge shield was out. Admiral Piett orders foreward firepower intensified (FLAK screen, essentially) and an A-wing got clipped ... it's random, uncontrolled spiral made it impossible to hit again, and it slammed into Executor's bridge (also poorly placed, just as with a Federation Starship.)
Imerial ships have shields, Rebel FIGHTERS have shields .... and I'll let you in on a secret.
Mon Calamari Cruisers have MULTIPLE, REDUNDANT, OVERLAPPING SHIELD GENERATORS!!!! There's a good reason Ackbar stated "Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!" That's because Mon Cal Cruisers can take anything someone can dish out and return it in kind .... and when a shield pops, there's a backup or four ready in the wings to take up the slack while the original unit is repaired, cooled down, recharged, and so forth.
So, transporters do not equal Ultimate game-changing technology.
Fighters.
yes, a single tie-fighter is no match for any Capitol Class shield system. But let's count numbers here. A quadron is generally accepted to be 12 craft. 6 squadrons = 72 Tie Fighters. And that's if we're just going with a single fighter type. Most Star Destroyers will carry a mixed compliment. There's be a squadron of Bombers (those double-hulled TIE's in Empire, poking at the asteroids with photon bombs) Some of the more prestigously assigned ships might even have a squadron of Tie Interceptors (the bent wing TIE fighters.) And let's not get started on the various other mostly small craft with capitol class ordinance. Like the Y-wing and B-wing, both of which carry Ion Cannons, capable of shredding shields and playing merry hob with all sorts of powered equipment. And the Y and B wing Ion Guns are rated against capitol ships .... which are their primary targets. And the Y-wing was originally an Imperial ship... as was the X-wing (Incom T-65) until certain Incom Execs took the X-wing plans to the Rebel Alliance.
So, let's do the math again, with a slightly altered small craft compliment.
1 squadron of Y-wings (12 ships)
1 Squadron of TIE Bombers (12 ships)
1 squadron of X-wings (12 ships)
3 squadrons of TIE FIghters (36 ships)
1 Star Destroyer
VS
1 Galaxy Class Starship
About 20-30 Shuttles of varying sizes and ratings (look at the Enterprise-D blueprints, and count the shuttles actually represented. Most people list so few small craft for such a massive ship, mostly because I think they forget about the size of the hangar bay on the saucer.)
Make is 3 squadrons of small craft, that in no way match up to the compliment (and sheer numbers) that Star Wars brings to bear on a regular basis.
And let's not forget .... the ships in Star Wars are built and designed expressly for the waging of war. The Ships of the Federation are built expressly to be able to fill as many potential roles as possible, therefore sacrificing combat potential for exploration, science, and luxury.
I'm sure all the Enterprise ships are smaller than a Star Destroyer, but what about the JJprise? That thing is huge.
Here's a handy chart, though I make no claims to how accurate or valid it may be.
One more Federation advantage I'd like to point out that has gone overlooked in this discussion: targeting.
Star Wars weapons are predominantly manual. Every laser, every cannon is operated by a person. Star Trek weapons, even as far back as the ENT era, are computer-guided and almost completely automated, with a manual backup should those systems go offline. Evasive maneuvers tend to do jack all against it and even the smaller, faster shuttlecraft can only hope to get out of Dodge before their engines get taken out or worse. Then factor in how 90% of Star Wars space battles tend to consist of people not hitting their targets and... yeah.
One more Federation advantage I'd like to point out that has gone overlooked in this discussion: targeting.
Star Wars weapons are predominantly manual. Every laser, every cannon is operated by a person. Star Trek weapons, even as far back as the ENT era, are computer-guided and almost completely automated, with a manual backup should those systems go offline. Evasive maneuvers tend to do jack all against it and even the smaller, faster shuttlecraft can only hope to get out of Dodge before their engines get taken out or worse. Then factor in how 90% of Star Wars space battles tend to consist of people not hitting their targets and... yeah.
Enterprise E was around 685 meters, I believe JJprise is supposed to be around 725m. That gives size scale for those ships.
The main star destroyer we see in IV V and VI is the Imperator class and that is around 1600m I think, but I'd have to check one of my books....or the web I just did and I was right. Woo!
But I decided I wanted to win so.
Enterprise J, 2 miles long, folds space and explores other galaxies. We know nothing about its weapons but I figure it could just tractor you into a black hole or something cool like that.
The main star destroyer we see in IV V and VI is the Imperator class and that is around 1600m I think, but I'd have to check one of my books....or the web I just did and I was right. Woo!
But I decided I wanted to win so.
Enterprise J, 2 miles long, folds space and explores other galaxies. We know nothing about its weapons but I figure it could just tractor you into a black hole or something cool like that.
Enterprise J? What is this madness you speak of?
D was TNG, E was in the TNG movies, F, G, H, I? Was this J in a book or something?
D was TNG, E was in the TNG movies, F, G, H, I? Was this J in a book or something?
Was in enterprise, 'Azati Prime' heres a pretty picture of it.
Mathias wrote:
Enterprise J? What is this madness you speak of?
D was TNG, E was in the TNG movies, F, G, H, I? Was this J in a book or something?
D was TNG, E was in the TNG movies, F, G, H, I? Was this J in a book or something?
Anyways... Battlestar Galactica. Y'all are noobs.