I've got an idea I wanted to suggest to the group, and see what people think.
Frequently in RP, particularly events which have concrete objectives which can be achieved or failed, we use in-game dice rolls to govern the outcomes of attempts by players to impact the situation. For instance, an ice comet is hurtling toward the ship; the conn officer rolls a 51, so the comet misses the ship by a hair's breadth.
Typically, the player rolls and the GM interprets the result. It is often unclear, to anyone but the GM, what factors are being considered in this interpretation. A certain amount of trust in the GM is warranted, sure, but even so, this system is often frustrating to me. What target number am I rolling for? Are my character's skills being factored into that result? Circumstantial modifiers? Phase of the moon? It's all opaque and mysterious, which leads to a feeling that my actions are too subject to the capricious whims of chance.
But I'm not just here to grouse about dice. I have a mitigating solution to propose. In D&D 5e, a system of which I am not overwhelmingly fond but which does have some neat ideas, there is a system called "advantage" which was designed to replace the stacking roll modifiers of previous versions, particularly 4e. In this system, certain circumstances can confer upon the player advantage or disadvantage. The player then rolls two dice; if advantaged, the player takes the higher result, or the lower if disadvantaged.
What I like about this system is that it's an elegant way to model the difficulty of a task without a lot of number-juggling. Normally, the GM's mental calculations might go something like, "This challenge would be a 60 or higher for a normal person, but this character is trained in a relevant skill so I'll knock off 20 points for that, yet they're also injured..." Instead of all that, under the advantage system, you just have to decide if the player is advantaged, disadvantaged or neither in a given situation. You can then tell the player this status, and the reason for it, when asking them to roll. More transparency, more clarity of purpose.
In my opinion, the simplicity of this system is best applied to a static target number. In most of the roleplay situations I have been involved in which included dice roles, it was assumed that the role was a 50/50 check. I think that principle is perfect for the advantage system. 50-or-better becomes a 75% chance of success with advantage, or 25% with disadvantage. While the GM can, of course, set the target number as and how they like, the disadvantage moves the player and situational modifiers off the target number and leaves the GM free to set that number based on the objective difficulty of the task at hand.
I'd appreciate other opinions on this, or suggestions for other ways to mitigate the vagaries of random chance. I feel like there's room for improvement in the current model and I'm interested in getting a conversation going about how it could work better.
If it helps, Sara's player developed a full RP system using the d100 that was utilized in the ZEF by GMs who liked it. It allowed for statistics for the characters using what was a very small character sheet in essence, leading to advantages disadvantages, and was used only by GMs who felt it was a good fit for their style.
Characters trained in fields, and points were allocated based on rank. There were certain racial modifiers as well for certain alien species. That was, engineers had a natural advantage in engineering and tactical in combat.
Personally I feel it works very well, but a lot of people prefer not to use dice or to just use it as loose guidance. That's one of the real sticking points in freeform roleplay.
Characters trained in fields, and points were allocated based on rank. There were certain racial modifiers as well for certain alien species. That was, engineers had a natural advantage in engineering and tactical in combat.
Personally I feel it works very well, but a lot of people prefer not to use dice or to just use it as loose guidance. That's one of the real sticking points in freeform roleplay.
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I have some experience with the latter system, and would tend to prefer it to that suggested by the OP.
That said, I've also been teased (with some justification) that the ZEF and its inheritor(s) use dice way too much. ;)
It should be noted that pretty much everyone involved in these scenarios are trained and experienced Starfleet officers, or in the case of civilians, similarly adept in their fields. Many routine tasks should not, IMO, require a roll at all; and when there is risk, uncertainty or a degree of success involved, the above should still be taken into account.
That said, I've also been teased (with some justification) that the ZEF and its inheritor(s) use dice way too much. ;)
It should be noted that pretty much everyone involved in these scenarios are trained and experienced Starfleet officers, or in the case of civilians, similarly adept in their fields. Many routine tasks should not, IMO, require a roll at all; and when there is risk, uncertainty or a degree of success involved, the above should still be taken into account.
In my GMing I tend not to use dice unless I'm unsure about what the result should be or I'm conflicted (i.e. there's a very difficult task, but the player is very competent). I usually prefer to talk to the player OOC in PMs and reach a consensus on what the result should be. To me all this math and stuff overly complicates everything and distracts from the RP. Reaching a consensus with the player and then rolling if there's a conflict in my opinion is a lot cleaner and simpler than making everything focused on math and statistics and such.
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I'm more with Osi. In RP I don't like paying chance unless the situation actually calls for an element of chance (and a lot of the things we roll for may seem like they are legitimate chance actions but aren't really). I am notoriously flaky about GMing stuff since I have trouble coordinating a lot of people and actions but when I manage it I typically don't use dice rolls at all and rely on a plot branching system based on player action or simply decide action outcomes based on their relation to the plot (typically without letting the player know until they hit the right button so to speak).
Nothing is perfect for everyone though. What I do might not be ideal for others. A lot of this depends on the GM, and I don't think in this case that a standardized system would be useful.
Nothing is perfect for everyone though. What I do might not be ideal for others. A lot of this depends on the GM, and I don't think in this case that a standardized system would be useful.
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Before I write too much on the subject... I wanted to ask, since I recognized the ice comet sample.
Is the issue you have the fact that dice are not transparent or that they are used in situations to decide critical matters when you feel character competency should have more of a say?
For example, with the ice comet, I could have just accepted the "evasive maneuvers!" order for what it was and assumed it had been carried out successfully, since the players technically got their actions printed in a timely manner. Would that have been better?
Is the issue you have the fact that dice are not transparent or that they are used in situations to decide critical matters when you feel character competency should have more of a say?
For example, with the ice comet, I could have just accepted the "evasive maneuvers!" order for what it was and assumed it had been carried out successfully, since the players technically got their actions printed in a timely manner. Would that have been better?
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Ultimately, no two people ever want exactly the same thing. The best soloution as both a GM and a player is always to talk to each each other, communicate clearly about what you want, or don't want, and try to meet in the middle.
There are literally thousands of systems out there, each uses mechanics to emphasises different styles of gaming, and none them work perfectly (or in some cases at all) for all cases. I've run diceless events for some players who just wanted to RP and didn't want to feel that their immersion was lost at all, and for some others... I wrote a space combat system based on Battlefleet Gothic so they could 'game' as well as RP, but ultimately everyone wants something a bit different.
For reference here is the 'cheat sheet' I handed out to players: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1saYDBWxW0ScM-pERxq9C7L9wSeUb40thchmaGBl6wps/edit?usp=sharing
The specific group this was written for enjoyed it immensely, because once they'd learnt it, they found it intuitive, but it worked for them because they shared similar assumptions (which I understood very clearly) about what they wanted from an event.
In the vast majority of my events, I only ever ask a player to roll a dice when I know their character's background and skills, and failure will be just as interesting (and rewarding) as success.
There are literally thousands of systems out there, each uses mechanics to emphasises different styles of gaming, and none them work perfectly (or in some cases at all) for all cases. I've run diceless events for some players who just wanted to RP and didn't want to feel that their immersion was lost at all, and for some others... I wrote a space combat system based on Battlefleet Gothic so they could 'game' as well as RP, but ultimately everyone wants something a bit different.
For reference here is the 'cheat sheet' I handed out to players: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1saYDBWxW0ScM-pERxq9C7L9wSeUb40thchmaGBl6wps/edit?usp=sharing
The specific group this was written for enjoyed it immensely, because once they'd learnt it, they found it intuitive, but it worked for them because they shared similar assumptions (which I understood very clearly) about what they wanted from an event.
In the vast majority of my events, I only ever ask a player to roll a dice when I know their character's background and skills, and failure will be just as interesting (and rewarding) as success.
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Before I write too much on the subject... I wanted to ask, since I recognized the ice comet sample.
So first off, let me say that I probably should have picked a better example. I actually had no problem with this, because it seemed to me like an extraordinary circumstance where even a capable conn officer could be caught off guard. If the player had rolled low and we were hit, I don't think anybody would have blamed the pilot because that comet literally came out of nowhere. I was only using it as an illustrative example of a sudden circumstance requiring a reaction roll that resulted in a qualified success. So, sorry if it seemed like I was calling this situation out!
More generally, I haven't actually run into any situations where I, personally, had to roll for something and felt like that was inappropriate. My feelings on capricious dice are informed more by a combination of past experience and some observed circumstances from other players' chatlogs, etc. So I guess you could say I was proposing a solution to a problem I haven't personally encountered yet.
I think more transparency is good where dice are involved, but I understand that it can be ponderous to lay out all the factors that contribute to a GM's target number estimation, some of which may just be gut feeling. Transparency also opens you up to second-guessing and rules lawyering and all that baggage, which any GM would be justified in wanting to avoid. "I'm granting you advantage on this roll because X" is nice and simple, so it hopefully sidesteps that trap, but your mileage may vary.
Sara's player developed a full RP system using the d100 that was utilized in the ZEF by GMs who liked it.
I can respect this level of dedication but it's not the way I would choose to go, personally. I don't seek to make my roleplay more numbers-driven than it already is. Kudos to Sara for building this, though.
In my GMing I tend not to use dice unless I'm unsure about what the result should be or I'm conflicted (i.e. there's a very difficult task, but the player is very competent).
In general principle, I'm with Osi and Dex; I prefer to keep rolls to a minimum. Not only am I not that fond of roleplaying randomness, but I sort of feel like it's not a natural fit for Star Trek, where it's generally taken for granted that all these people are super capable at whatever they do. Dramatic tension in Star Trek doesn't usually come from people trying to do something and failing, but rather from figuring out what is the right thing to try in this situation. So in most situations I'd be happy to forego the dice altogether.
However, I recognize that different people have different styles and I'm happy to go along with the GM's preferred approach to conflict resolution. If that involves dice, I'm OK with that. My OP was merely suggesting what I believe to be a more humane way to use them, if they're going to be used.
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Sivath wrote:
So first off, let me say that I probably should have picked a better example. I actually had no problem with this, because it seemed to me like an extraordinary circumstance where even a capable conn officer could be caught off guard. If the player had rolled low and we were hit, I don't think anybody would have blamed the pilot because that comet literally came out of nowhere.
Oh good, because this is almost exactly what I was going to say about the circumstances if you *had* had an issue with it. So we're on the same page here. I try to keep my asks for dice rolls to situations like this one, where the results are due to extraordinary circumstances and the results are never going to be narrated as a failure of officer competency.
I actually think the proposed advantage/disadvantage system is not too bad and I might consider using it in the future. If nothing else, having the terminology might help shortcut through all the variables. Though ultimately it is just another masking layer and the GM has prerogative determining what gets included in advantage/disadvantage and what doesn't... so... you're really just outsourcing the mystery. <_<
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Though ultimately it is just another masking layer and the GM has prerogative determining what gets included in advantage/disadvantage and what doesn't... so... you're really just outsourcing the mystery. <_<
That's certainly one way of looking at it, but I think that the advantage system still communicates more to the player than "make a dice roll". Having advantage on a roll tells me that I shouldn't sweat this too much, I'm operating within my character's comfort zone; whereas disadvantage communicates to me that this is a long shot roll and I shouldn't get bent out of shape if I fail. Even if the GM is keeping the target number a secret, it gives me a sense of my own character's capability in this situation and lets me adjust my expectations accordingly.
The other aspect of this, which you may consider a benefit or drawback, is that it sort of implicitly invites the player to try to make the case for advantage on a roll. "I studied xenolinguistics at Starfleet Academy, it's on my dossier. Can I have advantage on this?" That this may inspire some players to try to plead for advantage* on everything is a nuisance, certainly, but it has the offset of putting less pressure on the GM to track the skills of all their players (whether with character sheets or dossiers or whatever), since they can be their own advocates. In essence, it creates a streamlined language of negotiation between GM and player, for better or worse.
(* In theory players could advocate for disadvantage too, though I would expect much less of this. I mean, I'll do it for all Sivath's social rolls, but it might not be that common beyond that.)
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This works best around a table, or on VOIP when communication is quick and dosen't clutter a chat box. For the most part, if your supposed to be good at something, rolling is to my mind just determined 'how well you passed' rather than deciding sucess - fail. Or just, don't roll altogether.
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I'm just going to come out and say it, I don't like dice rolls for any RP really. I feel that both sides should be able to reasonably able to RP out an event and shouldn't need the restriction of a dice roll to keep things in check. If they can't, then probably the RP should be reconsidered...
For the record, this only counts in an MMO or computer RPG. For a tabletop I'm totally for dicerolls.
For the record, this only counts in an MMO or computer RPG. For a tabletop I'm totally for dicerolls.