If we were willing to diverge wildly from STO's canon, honestly I'd say that we could pull it off as a small-scale civil war or something like that.
On the other hand, that sort of divergence would also pretty solidly alienate newcomers to the fleet.
Yeah, it's not what Argo is for.
Yea I'd be hesitant to make it our own
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Pretty much on point.
There is another element though about D'Tan, and it is both contentious but also a sign of how amenable he can be. D'Tan is a staunch reunificationist, a concept that to Romulans at large is considered a fringe idea at best and total heresy at worst. Though to be fair there is a scale of reunification ideals too, where the most devout want to completely reunify with Vulcan like nothing ever happened because I guess they don't know how history works, and then there is just ones that want to have a friendly alliance with Vulcan while still being their own thing which is on the surface not a bad idea.
Now while it is unclear exactly where D'Tan falls under that scale, he did study directly under Spock after all, it is notable that aside from him bringing a bunch of people together, including Remans, he never forced his reunification doctrine on the Republic in any noticeable way. This means D'Tan is a pretty smart guy, he knows how to read the room and he knows he if pushes for that, he will not get the support of the majority of Romulans he needs. Once the Republic is stable and ingrained (it arguably is now, but I mean like after a decade at least) he might try to bring up the idea as policy for the Senate again but at that point he likely won't be the head of state anymore (if he wants to make progress he shouldn't be anyway). Will he ever succeed with that? Who knows. Where do I stand? Let's just say I have never rolled a pro-reunificationist Romulan, heh. Though my characters tend to know their history and wouldn't be against at least a political alliance with Vulcan as long as cultures and power weren't being traded.
Also yea, forgot this, this is important too. Reunification is still a VERY unpopular, controversial, view. D'Tan is one personally but the Republic official stance seems to just be 'of course we'll work with the Vulcans like anyone else'. I agree it's a pretty nice character detail that they make it fairly clear his Vulcan views are personal rather than official...for now...
And yea on an RP note, Evaste respects Vulcans but she's 100% against Reunification as she basically sees it as 'oh we should basically throw our entire culture away and go crawling back to Vulcan like kids who tried to run away from home', so a Republic shift to that would at least be interesting to RP
Basically just agree with everyone else already. The important stuff to remember is the Empire is absolutely devastated still because even the people who weren't gung-ho about D'Tan's plan saw that he could give people food and stability and the Empire is pretty much dying. The loyalists are HARD loyalists, like, 'I'd rather die an Imperial than live in the Republic' types. There's tooons of people on the spectrum between 'D'Tan did nothing wrong, he's the guiding light of our people' and 'I'll starve to death a proud citizen of the Empire before I accept that traitor's help' and that's about 90% of the Republic.
Like said, Romulans are still Romulans. D'Tan's government abandoned isolationism but he's NOT a grand cultural reformer. That's why it's able to succeed so well, he's throwing the doors open to a people who very recently saw their way of life absolutely destroyed and spent a long time in absolute chaos and terror and he's saying 'if you're willing to accept that we can't hide away from the galaxy any more and are willing to help us build you don't have to live like space debris'.
Also, yea, as pointed out the Tal Shiar are basically their own thing (if they exist at all any more). Imagine all that loyalist stuff I talked about now through the lens of probably one of the most viscous intelligence agencies outside of Cardassia trying to assert itself as an independent force. They became a much crueler and overtly vindictive force simply because there was literally no one to stop them any more. They didn't answer to anyone so why bother hiding the contempt they had for the 'commoners' and all?
Like said, Romulans are still Romulans. D'Tan's government abandoned isolationism but he's NOT a grand cultural reformer. That's why it's able to succeed so well, he's throwing the doors open to a people who very recently saw their way of life absolutely destroyed and spent a long time in absolute chaos and terror and he's saying 'if you're willing to accept that we can't hide away from the galaxy any more and are willing to help us build you don't have to live like space debris'.
Also, yea, as pointed out the Tal Shiar are basically their own thing (if they exist at all any more). Imagine all that loyalist stuff I talked about now through the lens of probably one of the most viscous intelligence agencies outside of Cardassia trying to assert itself as an independent force. They became a much crueler and overtly vindictive force simply because there was literally no one to stop them any more. They didn't answer to anyone so why bother hiding the contempt they had for the 'commoners' and all?
Pretty much on point.
There is another element though about D'Tan, and it is both contentious but also a sign of how amenable he can be. D'Tan is a staunch reunificationist, a concept that to Romulans at large is considered a fringe idea at best and total heresy at worst. Though to be fair there is a scale of reunification ideals too, where the most devout want to completely reunify with Vulcan like nothing ever happened because I guess they don't know how history works, and then there is just ones that want to have a friendly alliance with Vulcan while still being their own thing which is on the surface not a bad idea.
Now while it is unclear exactly where D'Tan falls under that scale, he did study directly under Spock after all, it is notable that aside from him bringing a bunch of people together, including Remans, he never forced his reunification doctrine on the Republic in any noticeable way. This means D'Tan is a pretty smart guy, he knows how to read the room and he knows he if pushes for that, he will not get the support of the majority of Romulans he needs. Once the Republic is stable and ingrained (it arguably is now, but I mean like after a decade at least) he might try to bring up the idea as policy for the Senate again but at that point he likely won't be the head of state anymore (if he wants to make progress he shouldn't be anyway). Will he ever succeed with that? Who knows. Where do I stand? Let's just say I have never rolled a pro-reunificationist Romulan, heh. Though my characters tend to know their history and wouldn't be against at least a political alliance with Vulcan as long as cultures and power weren't being traded.
Also yea, forgot this, this is important too. Reunification is still a VERY unpopular, controversial, view. D'Tan is one personally but the Republic official stance seems to just be 'of course we'll work with the Vulcans like anyone else'. I agree it's a pretty nice character detail that they make it fairly clear his Vulcan views are personal rather than official...for now...
And yea on an RP note, Evaste respects Vulcans but she's 100% against Reunification as she basically sees it as 'oh we should basically throw our entire culture away and go crawling back to Vulcan like kids who tried to run away from home', so a Republic shift to that would at least be interesting to RP
I wasn't saying that we should. Just that we definitely could.
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I have a question for the lore experts here on the matter of Reunification. I have seen this term used to mean related but distinct things, so I'm wondering if there is any consensus on its definition. Does it refer to political reunification -- which is to say, united government, shared territory and power, and generally peace, mutual tolerance and cooperation in recognition that Romulans and Vulcans are one people -- or to cultural reunification -- a merging of philosophies, compromising in some fashion between the polar opposites of logic and emotion as guiding principles? Or is it both, or neither?
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I've always read it as a somewhere between those, and what reunification means likely varies drastically depending on the Vulcan or Romulan.
I have a question for the lore experts here on the matter of Reunification. I have seen this term used to mean related but distinct things, so I'm wondering if there is any consensus on its definition. Does it refer to political reunification -- which is to say, united government, shared territory and power, and generally peace, mutual tolerance and cooperation in recognition that Romulans and Vulcans are one people -- or to cultural reunification -- a merging of philosophies, compromising in some fashion between the polar opposites of logic and emotion as guiding principles? Or is it both, or neither?
It depends on who you ask. Spock seemed to want political to an extent but he also taught Vulcan history and culture as if Romulans needed that back. I RP that there are radicals and conservatives within reunification groups. The radicals go to culture reappropriation, the conservatives are more political alliance. Then there is the majority of Romulans who think that's dumb because they left for a reason.
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Then there is the majority of Romulans who think that's dumb because they left for a reason.
And I couldn't agree more with them. I always thought the same, since I first saw "Reunification": I mean, Romulans not only left for a reason, but they did so a lot of time ago. Their culture has become as ancient and worthy of respect as any other. Sometimes, when I heard of reunification, it looks to me it is almost like people think Romulan civilization is somewhat inferior to Vulcan one, something I cannot agree with. They're simply different, and Vulcan culture as we know it is as derivative as the Romulan, so it cannot be a matter of "what came first".
Spock's decision to hide in Romulus, teaching Romulans Vulcan precepts is not wrong in itself, but it seems to me almost disrespectful: why not teaching Romulan customs to Vulcans as well?
Okay, so one of Aurelia's major arcs is reunification.
She doesn't think that political reunification is possible. She doesn't want it. Reunification isn't political at all -- it's the opposite of what killed Hobus, it is radical understanding and acceptance of the Other, of the thing that is Not Romulan, it is learning what you can learn from it and applying it to making what you are as a Rihannsu better.
So it's basically a religion, but yeah, it's early enough in the development that it can be anything you really want it to be. I don't think any reunificationist really thinks they want to be Vulcan... but it's political enough that D'Tan can use it as an alliance-maker with the Federation and the Klingons, but ONLY that.
She doesn't think that political reunification is possible. She doesn't want it. Reunification isn't political at all -- it's the opposite of what killed Hobus, it is radical understanding and acceptance of the Other, of the thing that is Not Romulan, it is learning what you can learn from it and applying it to making what you are as a Rihannsu better.
So it's basically a religion, but yeah, it's early enough in the development that it can be anything you really want it to be. I don't think any reunificationist really thinks they want to be Vulcan... but it's political enough that D'Tan can use it as an alliance-maker with the Federation and the Klingons, but ONLY that.
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Okay so, Romulan History. Thanks, Dex for putting up the Diane Duane version of Romulan History. It's the best.
What everyone in this thread is failing to take into account is "The Path to 2409" or the history Cryptic wrote that lead up to Hobus and then to the formation of the Republic. (Remember people, Cryptic still needs to get approval for almost everything they do by the Star Trek Intellectual Property Holders. The Path to 2409 is legit.)
The problems go back as far as Star Trek:Nemesis and Shinzon's rebellion. That in itself almost brought the Empire to its knees. Things that happened in the Star Empire after the Rebellion led to a Romulan Civil War even before Hobus and the Unificationists (not Re-Unificationists) and the Remans took advantage of the situation and both demanded representation in the Romulan Senate. The Unificationist movement was bigger than what you see in the two part episodes in the Next Generation.
This is information that can be found both on the web and in game by doing the Star Trek Academy test thing at the Star Fleet Academy and the Klingon Academy. Each accolade you get by doing it, gives more of the story of the Path to 2409. (I've included a lot of the Romulan-Specific ones in Rellir's Dossier Thread. You get more lore by actually doing the reputation mark stuff for the Romulan Faction and learn that D'Tan didn't want any part of the Tal Shiar and wanted to keep them as far away from the Republic as possible.
As far as attitudes of the Romulan people in the current Republic -- very little has changed since the Vulcan Sundering when the followers of Surak fought a nuclear war with the "Those that marched beneath the Raptor's Wings". They are still very emotional. D'Tan gets this and this is one of the reasons he is fighting so hard for Unification. If you listen closely to his speech when you land on Mol'rihan, you learn that he doesn't want full assimilation with the Vulcans, but rather a joining of Vulcan and Romulan cultures that brings out the best of both worlds.
In a phrase, as far as D'Tan is concerned, "Spock is the new Surak."
What everyone in this thread is failing to take into account is "The Path to 2409" or the history Cryptic wrote that lead up to Hobus and then to the formation of the Republic. (Remember people, Cryptic still needs to get approval for almost everything they do by the Star Trek Intellectual Property Holders. The Path to 2409 is legit.)
The problems go back as far as Star Trek:Nemesis and Shinzon's rebellion. That in itself almost brought the Empire to its knees. Things that happened in the Star Empire after the Rebellion led to a Romulan Civil War even before Hobus and the Unificationists (not Re-Unificationists) and the Remans took advantage of the situation and both demanded representation in the Romulan Senate. The Unificationist movement was bigger than what you see in the two part episodes in the Next Generation.
This is information that can be found both on the web and in game by doing the Star Trek Academy test thing at the Star Fleet Academy and the Klingon Academy. Each accolade you get by doing it, gives more of the story of the Path to 2409. (I've included a lot of the Romulan-Specific ones in Rellir's Dossier Thread. You get more lore by actually doing the reputation mark stuff for the Romulan Faction and learn that D'Tan didn't want any part of the Tal Shiar and wanted to keep them as far away from the Republic as possible.
As far as attitudes of the Romulan people in the current Republic -- very little has changed since the Vulcan Sundering when the followers of Surak fought a nuclear war with the "Those that marched beneath the Raptor's Wings". They are still very emotional. D'Tan gets this and this is one of the reasons he is fighting so hard for Unification. If you listen closely to his speech when you land on Mol'rihan, you learn that he doesn't want full assimilation with the Vulcans, but rather a joining of Vulcan and Romulan cultures that brings out the best of both worlds.
In a phrase, as far as D'Tan is concerned, "Spock is the new Surak."
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I certainly wasn't forgetting the path to 2409 stories. A lot of them are the basis for my background story for Taiv in fact. I didn't feel mentioning them in this topic only because I was speaking so generally instead of about recent events specifically. That being said those are all good points. There are certainly a lot of things to remember about the 2380s schism between the RSE and the Imperial Romulan State under Donatra (including that Virinat was annexed by the latter, depriving some worlds of needed food shipments, including Artaleirh. Easy to forget Virinat was an important colony before Hobus and not just a backwater farmland that the Tal Shiar upends 5 minutes into the Republic story, heh).
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"No, My Beloved Peasant Village!"
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