Romulans and STO

So, guys, I've recently decided to make a Romulan alt, so I've digged into their campaign and......I've made a few considerations about how Romulans are portrayed in STO that I'd like to share with you (and that I made while also playing Fed campaigns; just, now they've assumed another relevance for me).

First of all, how is it possible that after two decades of the destruction of Romulus, the situation looks almost as it happened yesterday? This may be perhaps only my own fault, but it all looked to me as Romulus had fallen just the day before the campaign begins, despite the continuous reminders that that's not the case.

Second, all the Republic vs. Empire thing. Is it realistic, based on ST lore? I mean: why would the Romulans wish to be a Republic, a form of government they never had in all their history? Why not rebuilding something more similar to the old regime?

Then, as third, the worst: why is the Empire so stupid? Really. It looks like all Romulans with a low IQ gets into the Imperial ranks, otherwise it is unexplicable how they make such stupid plots. They seem to invite destruction upon themselves! The whole thing of the Khitomer conference, for example, is hardly believable at all: hiding ships just under the Klingon's nose, then transporting bombs down on the surface while running away, pretending that both Klingons and the Federation would think of D'Tan as the man guilty of all this? Allying with the Elachi just for the sake of it? (yeah, I know it's a bit more complicated than that, but, if you go to the heart of the issue, it's more or less this) Being evil just for the sake of being evil? I'd expect more, much more from the direct successor of the Romulan Star Empire. Did Hobus also destroy Romulan IQs?
Also, I understand the Tal Shiar was never "good" by any moral standard. But now they look more like 007 villains , than a paramilitary/intelligence organization.

Also, the behavior of the Federation is not very credible: they just open their arms to the Republic after Khitomer, without too much of an issue. But the Romulan Star Empire is still there, and it's the legal successor of the old Empire. Only, they're doing everything in their power to make sure the Federation allies itself with the Republic.

What do you think about all of this?
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well, after the destruction of Romulus, things were a mess, you had people scrambling to find their families, find a new home, Nero was on his rampage with his newly Borgified Mining Ship, surviving high ranking Imperial Military commanders engaging in a power struggle over who leads the Empire next.

Now, Keep in mind, Nero was devastating in his rampage, the Klingons lost whole battlefleets trying to stop him, not to mention he was blowing up countless Starfleet Medical ships that were trying to help Romulan refugees.

Also, while the Romulan Empire was an Empire, it was still very democratic in the sense that it had a senate that voted on issues, so going from an Empire to a Republic wasn't a huge step in changes, the really big issue is the Republic being a free republic with all of it's civilians as equals is what they are facing.
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We talked a lot about this already, but it is important to note the Tal Shiar and the Empire are no longer affiliated, and most of the bad guy stuff is the former being all Iconian crazy basically. The actual Empire is, aside from most Sela appearances, almost never shown in game after the Republic is formed. STO bias largely. It also remains to be seen if the Tal Shiar even survived the Iconian War.. they were kind of expendable pawns there....

The Romulans actually did have a republic before.... They had a lot of governments after they settled the Two Worlds. Initially it was the Ship Clans, then local planetside governments, a lot of wars there, then they were all largely united under the mad queen T'Rehu, who killed S'Task and largely made herself the most infamous figure in Romulan history before dying and ensuring Romulans would never stand for a monarchy again. Then a Republic formed that evolved into an Empire of the two worlds. Later they got warp technology (they did not have it before they left Vulcan for the record, they went the long way), and the sources get fuzzy there.. they either build the Star Empire before first contact with Earth or as a result of it. Canon based on Enterprise seems to imply they already had expanded out into space pretty heavily though, so we'll go with that.

In general.. and this is a huge generalization, Republics are the precursors to Empires. Defining an Empire is hard though as a nation need not call itself an empire to be one in my opinion (There are arguments that America already is one, but that is way way way outside the scope of this topic and should absolutely not be discussed here). Rome was a Republic before it was an Empire and that transition took several decades largely due to Octavian, later known as Augustus, building on what Julius Ceasar has already done to fix a lot of the Republic's problems before his assassination.

(and yes Ceasar did a ton of questionable and technically illegal things but he was largely successful in reuniting the republic in a way that wasn't going to happen otherwise, and likely ensured the survival of it after Augustus reformed it for the next several hundred years where it collapsed largely due to the same issues that Ceasar worked to fix originally... and the East or Byzantine Empire managed for another thousand years at that)

Why did I bring Rome up? Well Romulans have always been a thinly veiled analogue of Rome is why, lol. It's in their name after all (a Federation name for them of course). My point is, Republics are just smaller earlier stages to Empires in many cases. Not always, but it has happened that way. It wouldn't be crazy to think the Romulan Republic might become a new Empire one day but that is up for the story writers to decide.
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IMO:

1. Thirty years isn't that long to a long-lived people, which the Romulans (being Vulcanoids) are. That's barely enough time for a new generation to have come of age that's never known a universe with ch'Rihan and ch'Havran, or the RSE as one of the great powers of the quadrant.

2. They did try rebuilding the Empire, or AN empire. Multiple times. Most of those times, it really sucked for anyone who wasn't in the military or the Tal Shiar and/or a crony of whatever admiral or *cough* half-breed was currently on the throne. After enough of this, many of the common people (the ones who were disproportionately left after the center of Romulan power went "boom"), plus the Remans (who were all slaves up until just a few years before Hobus), had the radical idea, "maybe we could try something where we don't get **** on all the time?"

Not that the Republic is all that different from the Empire, under the surface. D'Tan talks a very good game, and there have definitely been reforms, but the basic character of the Romulan people has not, IMO, changed. Old habits (and old grudges) die hard - see above about long-lived people, and if you want to bring up Romans, consider the fine tradition of vendetta - and if you think that there's no politics or intrigue in the Republic... well, you're probably some charmingly naive Terran. (Like Ambassador Sugihara, who in the Romulan arc is seen in full leg-humping mode. :roll: )

3. Well, aside from it being a well-established trope, authoritarian empires often are profoundly stupid and dysfunctional at many levels. When people are more focused on ideological purity and/or being seen as competent by those above and below, and pinning the blame for any mistakes on underlings, actual competence tends to suffer.

But really, this is like asking "why does every Starfleet officer of flag rank eventually become a jerk or go insane?" or "why do all crises get wrapped up neatly in 47 minutes (unless it's a two-parter)?" It's the conventions of the genre, go with it. (Or don't, and be unhappy.)
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I'm by no means a Romulan expert, so I won't go too much into Romulan politics and history because I'll probably get things wrong. I do want to expand on Dex's point about STO's bias in depicting the Romulans though. The campaign in-game does feel like the Romulans are just starting to rebuild, with the search for New Romulus and all, but keep in mind that we're only seeing the Romulan Republic side of things. It's certain that the Romulan Star Empire already have their own version of New Romulus; while the Republic starts out essentially like Star Wars' Rebel Alliance, the Romulan Empire is an established government which means it probably has a capital somewhere.

The Romulans have already rebuilt; they didn't randomly decide to make a new form of government, they remade the Romulan Star Empire. It was fine for a while, until a lot of people grew unsatisfied with the way things were done and kicked off a rebellion. Some of these people were former military officers, but others were just colonists who felt like they were being stepped on/forgotten by the government (basically a Romulan Maquis). The lore looks fine to me, but the issue is that the storytelling of the campaign occasionally makes you think that it's telling a post-apocalyptic story, while it's really telling a revolution story.

Correct me if I'm wrong about anything, Romulan lore is not my strong point.
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Good points Mudd. It is also worth noting Sela is a large part of the problem, but Taris wasn't much better. The Empire stopped being any sort of useful after Hobus. Sela reinstituted the position of Empress just cause she wanted to be in charge fully. Ael t'Rllaillieu was an empress too but she was also the most level headed Rihanha ever and had to actively reform the Imperial government. That was in the late 23rd century though, clearly they didn't keep the title around as in TNG on they were using an updated form of Praetoriate. Their reliance on the Tal Shiar was the only thing the Empire did in the 24th century that wasn't the best idea, but otherwise they were pretty democratic about things yeah. Sela does not preside over the best version of the Empire, she presides over a mock up of it. That's why they seem to be so dumb probably.
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Ann: Yup, the RSE capitol is mentioned a couple of times: Rator III.

Thing is, between their poor choice of allies and/or leaders, and just general bad fortune, there isn't much left of the RSE proper at this point in the story. Later episodes with Sela (*spit*) suggest that it's a mere remnant, even weaker than the small but vital and growing Republic, almost destroyed by infighting and opportunist aliens.

Oh, and speaking of the latter - the alliance with the Elachi, or the Hirogen, wasn't just for the evulz. Those were cases of someone deciding they wanted to sit in the big chair and being quite willing to sell out some of their (few remaining) own people - either as food, or as prey - to put them there.

(Also, at least some of the stuff with the Elachi was directly due to Hakeev, who knew the Iconians were coming and figured the only way for (what was left of) the RSE to survive and remain in some sort of power was as a vassal state.)
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wrote:
I'm by no means a Romulan expert, so I won't go too much into Romulan politics and history because I'll probably get things wrong. I do want to expand on Dex's point about STO's bias in depicting the Romulans though. The campaign in-game does feel like the Romulans are just starting to rebuild, with the search for New Romulus and all, but keep in mind that we're only seeing the Romulan Republic side of things. It's certain that the Romulan Star Empire already have their own version of New Romulus; while the Republic starts out essentially like Star Wars' Rebel Alliance, the Romulan Empire is an established government which means it probably has a capital somewhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong about anything, Romulan lore is not my strong point.

They do, the Empire's capital is Rator III. There is an old mission where you visit it.. but you don't see much.

EDIT: I keep dancing around other people posting, lol...
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I just found that information too! We don't know too much about Rator III though. And according to the wiki, the old mission is gone too...the game really hates depicting the Empire side of things!

EDIT: I'm dancing a lot too! This thread is just catching fire...
Seems to have finally settled.
So, Timoreev, does that answer your questions? :)
The Republic was propped up and supported in its early days by both the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and it's safe to say that D'Tan didn't put anyone in a place of power that wasn't committed to a non-xenophobic point of view, which means you get a military that cooperates, a Senate that is focused on building rather than control, etc. Romulans are the same people as they've always been; it's just that they're being run by a non-xenophobic government that wants to cooperate rather than hide and fight.

D'Tan is not the true leader of the true Romulan successor to the government that was in place when Romulus died, no. But he's feeding his people, and the RSE isn't, and to a bunch of people that still have post-traumatic stress, that's huge. That's why he was able to really wrest power of the Romulan people and tell a completely different story. It's right when you say it is a story of revolution. Aurelia's a true believer. But not everyone is....

D'Tan and his people took the lessons of the past and learned from them, then convinced the Federation and the Klingons to lower their guard and help him build a functional, actual government. He's the most Romulan of them all.
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The Republic was propped up and supported in its early days by both the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and it's safe to say that D'Tan didn't put anyone in a place of power that wasn't committed to a non-xenophobic point of view, which means you get a military that cooperates, a Senate that is focused on building rather than control, etc. Romulans are the same people as they've always been; it's just that they're being run by a non-xenophobic government that wants to cooperate rather than hide and fight.

This is a point of frustration I have with some folks- usually people outside the fleet. I'll see ostensible Republic Officers pull stuff that would have raised brows under the RSE, much more the Republic.

On the note of the original topic:

I would say that the formation of the Republic absolutely makes sense given the 'historical' context within the Star Trek Canon. Over the course of the past few decades, alliances with the Federation coupled with a post-Hobus refugee situation and the shock of.. well, Hobus led to an influx of new, often democratic ideas. Post-Romulus, the Imperial Government failed to work and provide for its people time and time again. It only makes sense for a desire to try something new to be fostered.
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Basically just agree with everyone else already. The important stuff to remember is the Empire is absolutely devastated still because even the people who weren't gung-ho about D'Tan's plan saw that he could give people food and stability and the Empire is pretty much dying. The loyalists are HARD loyalists, like, 'I'd rather die an Imperial than live in the Republic' types. There's tooons of people on the spectrum between 'D'Tan did nothing wrong, he's the guiding light of our people' and 'I'll starve to death a proud citizen of the Empire before I accept that traitor's help' and that's about 90% of the Republic.

Like said, Romulans are still Romulans. D'Tan's government abandoned isolationism but he's NOT a grand cultural reformer. That's why it's able to succeed so well, he's throwing the doors open to a people who very recently saw their way of life absolutely destroyed and spent a long time in absolute chaos and terror and he's saying 'if you're willing to accept that we can't hide away from the galaxy any more and are willing to help us build you don't have to live like space debris'.

Also, yea, as pointed out the Tal Shiar are basically their own thing (if they exist at all any more). Imagine all that loyalist stuff I talked about now through the lens of probably one of the most viscous intelligence agencies outside of Cardassia trying to assert itself as an independent force. They became a much crueler and overtly vindictive force simply because there was literally no one to stop them any more. They didn't answer to anyone so why bother hiding the contempt they had for the 'commoners' and all?
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Basically just agree with everyone else already. The important stuff to remember is the Empire is absolutely devastated still because even the people who weren't gung-ho about D'Tan's plan saw that he could give people food and stability and the Empire is pretty much dying. The loyalists are HARD loyalists, like, 'I'd rather die an Imperial than live in the Republic' types. There's tooons of people on the spectrum between 'D'Tan did nothing wrong, he's the guiding light of our people' and 'I'll starve to death a proud citizen of the Empire before I accept that traitor's help' and that's about 90% of the Republic.

Like said, Romulans are still Romulans. D'Tan's government abandoned isolationism but he's NOT a grand cultural reformer. That's why it's able to succeed so well, he's throwing the doors open to a people who very recently saw their way of life absolutely destroyed and spent a long time in absolute chaos and terror and he's saying 'if you're willing to accept that we can't hide away from the galaxy any more and are willing to help us build you don't have to live like space debris'.

Also, yea, as pointed out the Tal Shiar are basically their own thing (if they exist at all any more). Imagine all that loyalist stuff I talked about now through the lens of probably one of the most viscous intelligence agencies outside of Cardassia trying to assert itself as an independent force. They became a much crueler and overtly vindictive force simply because there was literally no one to stop them any more. They didn't answer to anyone so why bother hiding the contempt they had for the 'commoners' and all?

Pretty much on point.

There is another element though about D'Tan, and it is both contentious but also a sign of how amenable he can be. D'Tan is a staunch reunificationist, a concept that to Romulans at large is considered a fringe idea at best and total heresy at worst. Though to be fair there is a scale of reunification ideals too, where the most devout want to completely reunify with Vulcan like nothing ever happened because I guess they don't know how history works, and then there is just ones that want to have a friendly alliance with Vulcan while still being their own thing which is on the surface not a bad idea.

Now while it is unclear exactly where D'Tan falls under that scale, he did study directly under Spock after all, it is notable that aside from him bringing a bunch of people together, including Remans, he never forced his reunification doctrine on the Republic in any noticeable way. This means D'Tan is a pretty smart guy, he knows how to read the room and he knows he if pushes for that, he will not get the support of the majority of Romulans he needs. Once the Republic is stable and ingrained (it arguably is now, but I mean like after a decade at least) he might try to bring up the idea as policy for the Senate again but at that point he likely won't be the head of state anymore (if he wants to make progress he shouldn't be anyway). Will he ever succeed with that? Who knows. Where do I stand? Let's just say I have never rolled a pro-reunificationist Romulan, heh. Though my characters tend to know their history and wouldn't be against at least a political alliance with Vulcan as long as cultures and power weren't being traded.
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wrote:
Seems to have finally settled.
So, Timoreev, does that answer your questions? :)

After all these opinions? XD
Well, I could say so :)
It has been amazing reading how detailed opinions people have about this subject (which I find, by the way, very fascinating, and that's why I proposed the topic in the first place).
I've collected a lot of interesting ideas for the background of my Romulan alt, as well.

Also, it is interesting to see that, at all effects, the new Republic could be nothing more than a first step toward the re-establishment of the Empire (although, at this point, it would be more a matter of formal names than anything else). It looks like I fell prey of D'Tan propaganda and Sugihara enthusiasm, after all....
I mean, if we accept the New Frontiers novels as STO canon (and its protagonist, Mackenzie Calhoun does show up as an NPC in the game), there's at least one war left between the Federation and the Romulans, because eventually the Romulans find out that Sisko manipulated them into joining the Dominion War.
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I didn't know about this new Fed-Rommie war...
I'm hoping we get to play that out in STO. CONFLICT WHEEEE
A new Fed-Rom war could actually be really exciting especially from an RP standpoint if it was to become fleet cannon.
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Yea I VERY much want that to be canon, yummy dramabombz